9/11 , Conspiracy or just another incident in history?
Well IMO 9/11 was simply an event which happened and there isn't much more to it. The elite took full advantage of the crisis and that's pretty much it.
Anybody have more info out there? What do you believe?
So, ahh, you know, there's a place in the footage of the 2 towers falling where the top 20 stories or so of the building is sort of tilted at a funny angle, obviously separated from the floors below? It should have hit the remaining building asymetrically and gone flying somewhere away from the rest of the wreckage.
Now, some 'troofers' I know will go off on a tangent here and say "It was blown to bits!" but I think it just fell straight down because there was nothing in its way. You can't really see where it goes after it drops into the dust cloud. And then some of the more feverish will holler "pyroclastic flow!" when it's really just a dust cloud.
And then there's building 7. Perfect textbook demolition, it falls straight down into its own footprint. You can't replicate that with random damage and a smoky diesel fire.
And it din't take months of work to plant the charges. Most of that prep time for a controlled demolition is spent removing all glass, furnishings, loose metal of any kind, so that you won't have projectiles. Whoever blew up those buildings didn't f*ing care.
So there ya have it ... which conspiracy do you pick: 1) Ragtag bunch of Arab hillbillies operating out of a haystack on the Hindu Kush; 2) His Imperial Evilness shouting orders and pushing buttons in his bunker under the navel observatoire?
Isn't there a middle ground? Like a massive failure across all levels of Intelligence to prevent the terrorists from striking the WTC. We have the financial crisis as a perfect example of complete failure across all levels of Government and intelligence?
I don't think the financial crisis was "engineered" FWIW. I do think there was this push to deregulate unbridled greed, so you have this shoal of piranhas, which can almost appear like a unified entity sometimes. Inasmuch as the failure was "engineered", it started with Reagan's assertion that "government is the problem", as he then proceeded to make it so.
I'm afraid it's not as simple as you've put it above. Not nearly an either or of two implausible hyperbolas.
If you really want to go into this there are a number places with well researched and documented material. There is also a dump load of ignorantly bad, or purposefully bad information out there. Unfortunately, one simply has to put in the time to sort through it.
Forget about "controlled demolition" and "inside job" catch phrases.
Just read well documented stuff and come to your own conclusions.
History Commons - This alone should give one pause, though it's a massive amount of material to get through. http://www.historycommons.org/
Daniel Hopsicker http://www.madcowprod.com/
Peter Dale Scott http://www.peterdalescott.net/
Nafeez Ahmed http://nafeez.blogspot.com/ (Read The War on Truth)
Here's a good 5 year old primer: Some of the links aren't working and some of the ideas are 5 years old, but the basics are still solid. http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/coincidence-theorists-guide-to-911.html
Mike Ruppert http://www.fromthewilderness.com/ (Read Crossing the Rubicon)
Look into Catherine Austin Fitts Sibel Edmonds John O'Neill Indira Singh
Watch the doc 9/11: Press for Truth http://www.911pressfortruth.com/
See the doc: Kill the Messenger http://www.justacitizen.com/KillTheMessenger.html
There's a lot more...
Actually I think it's smart of Ilargi and Stoneleigh to avoid the deep politics of 9/11 and beyond. It would cloud their message, which is of vital importance. But Ilargi's dismissiveness on the topic shows his own blind spot, in my opinion.
If I was able to see that Reagan, Bush, and Clinton were setting us up for a fall, then I have to assume that the best and the brightest must have considered it in the very least. There are no accidents in politics, again, in my opinion.
Dear Vk From TAE I read your comments when you post them but your one on 9/11 needs some looking at on your behalf Go to http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/
follow the links and see for yourself
and as a starting position do 2 things go to the one on the Pentagon lawns and ask yourself "where is the plane?" and then compare it to the Lockerbie or similar crash for an equivalent perspective then see for yourself. If that makes you ask questions then follow on looking
No plane theories are distractions. Too many eyewitnesses saw the plane at the pentagon. Sites like thewebfairy use sensations and emotions to convince.
I'll try posting this again. A letter I sent to Dr. J this morning. I would be interested in your critique of Griffin's 9/11 - The Myth and the Reality. I addresses the primary objection that you raised in TAE quite directly. It was his first "myth." _____________
As to debunking the 9/11 government conspiracy theory, I have no illusions that the truth will ever come out in such a fashion that the perpetrators will be brought to justice or even that the average Usaco will ever admit the truth. My main point for publishing my rejection of the theory is to warn people that "the Bastards" will stop at absolutely nothing to get their way. Once one recognizes the degree of their ruthlessness, one is at least psychologically warned.
If it were discovered that Hitler or Stalin pulled off a false flag operation for tactical reasons that killed 3000 citizens of their country, it would hardly make a footnote in a history book. But the myth of American exceptionalism is a whole other ball of wax, and this myth will be a major enabler to allow the Bastards to destroy the citizenry of the country now and in the future.
Getting down to brass tacks, there is something even more amazing than WTC7 collapsing for no apparent reason. That was that the de facto owner of the building, billionaire Larry Silverstein, explain why they had to "pull" the building for safety reasons on network television while it was still in plain view over his shoulder through a window. This was also true of a British reporter, who described the collapse in the past tense while it was still standing in plain view behind her in the video.
If you study it carefully, you will discover that WTC 1 & 2 were specifically designed to withstand the impact of a 707, the largest commercial jet at the time. For what it is worth, which isn't much, I actually put in a couple of weeks working there as a construction plumbing for my shop at the time. However, I hold no particular fondness for the structure itself.
The gold standard for debunking the government conspiracy theory is set forth in many works by the brilliant and very rational Professor Emeritus of Theology, David Ray Griffin. Probably the best entry level into his work is the one hour video, 9/11: The Myth and the Reality which may be found at:
He also recently did a one hour interview on Guns and Butter where he went into further detail that the secular myth of the basic "goodness" of the American government made it psychologically impossible for people to grasp this crime. That is why I got into "How would the truth make you feel?" with Aesthete yesterday. Until Americans can recognize and cope with the ensuing avalanche of feelings of betrayal and terror (with their government), they are quite incapable of evaluating the evidence. Or to quote the funniest American of the 20th century, Richard Pryor, "Are you gonna believe me or your lying eyes?"
Griffin dealt with this in January of this year in an interview at:
http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/47346 Guns and Butter - "9/11 and Nationalist Faith" with Dr. David Ray Griffin
Griffin goes into mind numbing detail, dissecting the government lies into tiny pieces in his work, Debunking 9/11 Debunking, but the only person I would recommend this to would be VK, who would would probably delight in the intricacies and detail.
If you want to get into the physical impossibility of the planes dropping the WTC, Steven Jones is the gold standard. He was a full professor of physics at BYU until he published papers showing that only nanothermite could have caused the collapsed. BYU then forced him into early retirement.
You can access his original paper and later ones at:
http://stj911.org/
As I former chemist, I was quite capable of evaluating this information which I found quite conclusive.
Thanks for the links, there's a lot of information to go through it seems! I've never studied 9/11 much I admit, in the same way that I have studied energy, finance etc.
I would second the David Ray Griffin and Steven Jones references. Solidly science-based.
There's a lot of disinformation or hysterical speculation out there, it's hard to tell which is which. But I've seen some pages that will start to tell a story of a not-so-well-controlled demolition, and then wander off onto space aliens with laser beams or secretly-developed teeny tiny nuclear bombs.
I think Mike Ruppert tells a pretty convincing story about the intelligence failures (and misdirection), but waxes speculative on some of the technical aspects. Still, it's interesting to read about how the air defenses of the most powerful military in history could not find 3 or 4 stray jumbo jets for an hour or more after they had gone off course.
I enjoy so much your posts at TAE. Thank you for your sincere inquiry on 9/11. I hope you pursue the solid sources and suggestions offered above.
My husband and I were first exposed to the reality of 9/11 by a dvd ("A Call to Reopen the Sept. 11 Investigation -- Confronting the Evidence") given to us by a fellow Kucinich primary campaign worker, and "The Great Conspiracy: The 9/11 News Special You Never Saw." Later, we read Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon" and Griffin's "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11." We became convinced after much reading that 9/11 was a false flag operation orchestrated by our government. This was a heartbreaking realization because it left no hope in the system. We reflected that if our government could do this to its own people no one was safe in the USA and there was no hope for any genuine reform. The efforts of peaceful activists would be futile in terms of affecting any significant change, particularly at the federal government level.
Still, it's interesting to read about how the air defenses of the most powerful military in history could not find 3 or 4 stray jumbo jets for an hour or more after they had gone off course.
Could it be that the US govt didn't plan the attacks but knew about them before hand or simply couldn't react in time to the information. And then made full use of the attack to their own benefit.
The US is the largest economy in the world but as we have seen the present debacle unfold, I've come to realize that all the wrong people are in power. Namely keynesians and Larry Summers!
The official excuse was that the military was conducting exercises that day and all their fighter planes and other resources were busy practicing responses to simulated threats.
Any one piece of evidence could be discounted one way or another but taken together, the events of that day do not seem coincidental.
"Could it be that the US govt didn't plan the attacks but knew about them before hand or simply couldn't react in time to the information. And then made full use of the attack to their own benefit."
No. Cheney's actions under the White House as detailed in excruciating detail by Griffin disproves this notion. Secretary of Transportation Moreta is on video (he was in the command center with Cheney) stating as the aircraft was headed east toward the Pentagon, a junior officer repeatedly asked Cheney if they should intercept and down the craft. Cheney told him no, that if he wanted this done he would give the order. The officer asked him again, in disbelief, five minutes prior to impact. Cheney responded with anger to the officer.
VK, with your high powered brain, hopefully not too whiskey soaked, once you start to dig into the details, the truth wil become exceedingly apparent. However, it may be interesting to ask yourself why you are trying to find rabbit holes to the truth that this was a false flag operation, orchestrated by Cheney, and then laid at the feet of OBL. The real OBL, who almost certainly died a few months later from complications of a stroke and kidney disease, originally vehemently denied involvement.
If your interest is as an historian I commend you. However, I submit that if irrefutable glaringly obvious proof of 9-11 as a US elite plot was in hand and shown to US citizens it would make precisely no difference now. Layer after layer of criminality and police state via Patriot and Military Commissions acts have been plyed on to America thanks to the game changing 9-11. It is too late for discovery or the truth. Remember the phrase current during 2001 "suddenly everything is different..."? It was a setup, a lie --but it worked. It is all water over the dam by now, ancient history to propagandized citizens with 26 second attention spans. The Overlords won totally and completely.
The real OBL, who almost certainly died a few months later from complications of a stroke and kidney disease, originally vehemently denied involvement.
WHAT??? He denied it and he's dead?
Any data to support this conclusion? How is he making those videos then from Pakistan??
Well, there are a few problems with the later OBL videos. For one, his face is quite different. But more appalling is that OBL was left handed, and the guy in the later videos was right handed. But just as L. Ron Hubbard kept writing books after he died, OBL kept making videos. No point in allowing a little thing like death to screw up your productivity.
As to links to a factual basis of this, Griffin deals with it briefly in the video 9/11 : The Myth and the Reality which you apparently haven't had the opportunity to view yet. He deals with it exclusively in his last and recent book,:
Osama Bin Laden: Dead or Alive? by David Ray Griffin (Paperback - May 20, 2009)
or you can access a decent interview with him about the book at:
Toodbrock's recommendation of Mike Ruppelt's Crossing the Rubicon is an excellent source and encyclopedic. This was my intro to tin foil hat conspiracy theorist psycho 101. I discovered Griffin afterwards. Along with Griffins's Debunking 9/11 Debunking, they prove way beyond a reasonable doubt to a rational investigator that it was a false flag inside job. And then of course you can throw in Steven Jones nanothermite work. As a matter of fact, Jones recently got ahold of some WTC pulverization, and ran it through some exotic analytical instruments. Guess what residues he found in it. Did you know the remaining girders were shipped to China for resmelting almost immediately with no forensic work done on them? No way to try a mass murder crime scene unless the cops committed the crime.
You ask why no one has spilled the beans. The beans are all over the floor. The fucking public is too hypnotized to notice them. It's all "conspiracy theorist" na-na-nih-na-na. After you learn the facts, don't forget how you were hypnotized by the bullshit. It is a valuable lesson. However, the fruits of this investigation is bitterness and despair, and you appear to have enough of these on your plate.
Quite a lot of comments for the first post on a new blog! I'm more of a LIHOP than a MIHOP, but my wife is a firm 911 Truther. Watching the Zeitgeist movie shook my complacency a bit, though. WTC 7 sure looks like an inside job.
Anyway, I'm more focused on getting ready for the implosion of civilisation. I've already lost faith in the U.S. .gov, so much so that we moved out of the country. And even though my wife is insistent on returning to North America, we're not re-entering the U.S. when we do. I just wanted to say good on ya TAE regulars for the discussions you have over there. I learn a lot from the topics you regs bring up.
I saw the Griffin video, poses some very interesting questions.
National Geographic is airing a 9/11 special with Griffin at the end of this month.
Check the link out here,
http://natgeotv.com/conspiracies
On Monday, August 31, 2009, National Geographic Channel's 9/11: Science and Conspiracy conducts a forensic investigation to test tenets of some of the most common conspiracy theories. Did the Twin Towers really collapse from fires, or did explosives inside cause the buildings to implode? Was the Pentagon hit by a missile, and not a commercial airliner? And why do so many people believe theories like these?
Using high-tech forensic experiments, CGI re-creations, eyewitness footage and in-depth analysis by experts and theorists on all sides of the story, 9/11: Science and Conspiracy examines the alleged conspiracies and available evidence. Then we take a fascinating fly-on-the-wall position as the theorists observe the scientific results and debate the conclusions.
Featured interviewees include "Truthers" Dr. David Ray Griffin, Dylan Avery, and Richard Gage; David Aaronovitch, journalist/author; Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone journalist; Patrick Smith, pilot and Salon columnist; David Baldacci, conspiracy novelist; and Brent Blanchard, demolition expert; among others.
One problem with the truthers I've met in person is their willingness to contradict themselves. (This is not to impugn the posters here.) A guy I worked with a couple years ago first claimed that there were no planes. When I told him that my college roommate's dad had seen one of them hit, he said they were remote controlled.
Look at the staggering, often contradictory, array of theories:
As with the financial crisis, I think vultures (no offense, El G) will capitalize on any disaster. But I don't think there's any man behind the curtain.
Another piece of skepticism from a Mr. Reaganomics, Paul Craig Roberts (Wikipedia):
Of the 9/11 Commission Report he wrote in 2006, "One would think that if the report could stand analysis, there would not be a taboo against calling attention to the inadequacy of its explanations." (see Criticisms of the 9/11 Commission Report). He has reported what he says are findings by experts that conclude there is a large energy deficit in the official account of the collapse of the three WTC buildings, and says that this deficit remains unexplained. Roberts comments on the "scientific impossibility" of the official explanation for the events on 9/11 and says those engineers and physicists who accept this theory are wrong. On August 18, 2006, he wrote: I will begin by stating what we know to be a solid incontrovertible scientific fact. We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less steel columned buildings, to “pancake” at free fall speed. Therefore, it is a non-controversial fact that the official explanation of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false... Since the damning incontrovertible fact has not been investigated, speculation and “conspiracy theories” have filled the void.[6] On the (back) cover of Debunking 9/11 Debunking (2007) he is quoted: Professor Griffin is the nemesis of the 9/11 cover-up. This new book destroys the credibility of the NIST and Popular Mechanics reports and annihilates his critics.Book Cover Quote Roberts adding that the so-called neoconservatives intended to use a renewal of the fight against terrorism to rally the American people around the fading Republican Party. "The administration figures themselves and prominent Republican propagandists ... are preparing us for another 9/11 event or series of events," he said. "You have to count on the fact that if al Qaeda is not going to do it, it is going to be orchestrated."
Thanks for the links. There's a voluminous amount of information out there. Certainly the biggest question I have is how WTC 7 collapsed minus any plane hit and what happened to Flight 93? Shot down or crashed?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, then they don’t have to worry about answers.” Thomas Pynchon – Gravity’s Rainbow
“We are allowed to believe anything, but to know nothing, and thus we cannot act.” Martin Schotz – History Will Not Absolve Us
I’ve collected a few audio and video lectures and presentations from the sites and authors listed above and have hastily thrown some of them up onto a website.
Griffin's most convincing argument for someone of your apparent mind set is put forth in his book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking. There are many used copies available on Amazon for under $6 plus postage.
I would also say that the topic of 9/11 is a minefield of disinformation and weirdness. Ruppert's book takes the practical approach of a former detective: who had means, motive, opportunity? In particular, he builds a case devoid of physical evidence, on the premises that a) much of the physical evidence was hastily destroyed, and b) physical evidence opens the door to contradictory experts. Griffin includes the physical evidence (Pentagon anomalies, Tower collapse theories, etc), but only as part of the larger argument that these are additional signs pointing in the same direction as time-based and political evidence.
It's a dirty game, the Sibel Edmonds story was fascinating. Sounds like it's right out of a hollywood movie! Espionage, double cross, illegal arms and drugs networks and trading of secrets.
Hey VK, I have a totally off-topic question for you (international bond market stuff), but I don't want to derail anything. Should I ask it here or give you my e-mail?
VK, you wrote on TAE, "So while I think Weaseldog, you accept your sins, you don't take blame for the sins of Bush/ Obama. This is true but I have to disagree on having no voting choice and being betrayed. If Americans would spend maybe a few hours of their year on educating themselves about Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich, things could've been a lot different."
I wanted to vote for Dennis, but our corporate leaders killed him in the primaries. We're offered a choice of turd sandwiches, and told to believe that this is how a democracy functions. No amount of education by the public would've changed the outcome of the primaries. We still would've gone to the polls, picking the best turd sandwich. We aren't allowed the luxury of choosing roast beef...
As to 9/11. I have to admit I'm a bit burned out on the topic. I was unemployed on that day, and saw the drama unfold on television. Hour by hour, the storyline and time lines were changed, adjusted, rearranged to fit the official story as it was being invented. I got tire of folks telling me I'm full of crap when I describe some of the stories as they were presented live. Most Americans didn't see the narrative until it had been rewritten.
I have to say that I'm suspicious of our lack of response. We only scrambled jets twice. We didn't scramble them when we knew the planes were hijacked. We scrambled them, only when it looked like the passengers were regaining control of the plane. In one incident, passengers said they had regained the control of the plane, and they were being diverted over the Atlantic. Jets were immediately scrambled out of Andrews Airforce Base to intercept. They came right back. the Atlantic Seaboard was closed and the story forgotten within the hour.
The other time was when the flight went down in Pennsylvania, reporters were on all three sites were the wreckage of the plane had been found. By the time evening came around, the official story was that there was only one crash site.
I don't think you need a grand conspiracy to explain these events. Dick Cheney was calling the shots. If he was the only one in the know, it would've been enough. After all, the purported hijackers (fake IDs true identities forever unknown), were financed by family friends of the former president Bush.
As to the demolition theory, it has a flaw. If you watch the videos, doctored or not, you see the buildings collapsing from the floors were the fires are. Normally demolitions start the collapse at the ground floor. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that demolitions experts, placed explosives inside of a fire.
I'll propose a theory on why it collapsed. Perhaps the building was made from substandard materials? Perhaps this is why the iron was quickly disposed of?
Keep in mind also, that an office building has much more mass in materials inside, with filing cabinets, desks, cubicles, computers etc..., than a hotel carries. So comparisons between hotel fires and office building fires might not be valid. The extra weight on each floor, may have played a role in causing a collapse in this case, versus the hotel fires given as counter examples.
WT7 appears to be what the authorities said it was. An intentional demolition. I've had two people who worked in certain government scenarios tell me that intelligence offices are rigged to melt down. This is a cold war strategy to prevent files from being stolen in case the building is compromised. Other folks laugh when I mention this. I have no proof. you can believe what you want.
But if the case of WT7 we had government intelligence offices, and the legal offices of the folks working on the Enron scandal, among high finance cases. It was awfully convenient for many wealthy people, that all of the evidence against them was lost.
Of course, I can't prove a thing. All I know is what I saw on TV, and read on the internet.
VK, Like some others I got burned out on 9/11 and ultimately it's importance is fading as the perps have pretty much achieved their goals.
I studied engineering physics at university and can tell you unequivocally that the official government theory is simply impossible based on Newtonian mechanics aka classical mechanics. (Whether it's possible in some alternate quantum universe is another story.)
A student with a good understanding of high school level physics could tell you why the buildings must have been brought down by explosives. For example: answer the question of whether there was enough energy within the system to wreak the damage that was done and the answer was that there was not by orders of magnitude---thus there had to be another energy input i.e. explosives.
The lack of a proper investigation with an examination of the evidence means that we will never get a clear trail pointing to the perps. And of course that's just what they want. Even the 9/11 commissioners complained that their hands were tied by lack of funds and access to witnesses and evidence.
Anyone who believes that at worst their government deliberately sat on evidence that terrorists were about to strike will miss the very key point that the perps/aka the Bush/Cheney cabal (a reference which btw was made by Colin Powell's Chief of Staff) are and were willing to do whatever it took to achieve their aims. A chilling realization considering that what it took was the largest mass murder in American History.
So, ahh, you know, there's a place in the footage of the 2 towers falling where the top 20 stories or so of the building is sort of tilted at a funny angle, obviously separated from the floors below? It should have hit the remaining building asymetrically and gone flying somewhere away from the rest of the wreckage.
ReplyDeleteNow, some 'troofers' I know will go off on a tangent here and say "It was blown to bits!" but I think it just fell straight down because there was nothing in its way. You can't really see where it goes after it drops into the dust cloud. And then some of the more feverish will holler "pyroclastic flow!" when it's really just a dust cloud.
And then there's building 7. Perfect textbook demolition, it falls straight down into its own footprint. You can't replicate that with random damage and a smoky diesel fire.
And it din't take months of work to plant the charges. Most of that prep time for a controlled demolition is spent removing all glass, furnishings, loose metal of any kind, so that you won't have projectiles. Whoever blew up those buildings didn't f*ing care.
So there ya have it ... which conspiracy do you pick: 1) Ragtag bunch of Arab hillbillies operating out of a haystack on the Hindu Kush; 2) His Imperial Evilness shouting orders and pushing buttons in his bunker under the navel observatoire?
Isn't there a middle ground? Like a massive failure across all levels of Intelligence to prevent the terrorists from striking the WTC. We have the financial crisis as a perfect example of complete failure across all levels of Government and intelligence?
ReplyDeleteMIHOP, LIHOP, or Hoocoodanode?
ReplyDeleteI don't think the financial crisis was "engineered" FWIW. I do think there was this push to deregulate unbridled greed, so you have this shoal of piranhas, which can almost appear like a unified entity sometimes. Inasmuch as the failure was "engineered", it started with Reagan's assertion that "government is the problem", as he then proceeded to make it so.
Hey,
ReplyDeleteI'm a daily reader of TAE for over a year now.
I'm afraid it's not as simple as you've put it above. Not nearly an either or of two implausible hyperbolas.
If you really want to go into this there are a number places with well researched and documented material. There is also a dump load of ignorantly bad, or purposefully bad information out there. Unfortunately, one simply has to put in the time to sort through it.
Forget about "controlled demolition" and "inside job" catch phrases.
Just read well documented stuff and come to your own conclusions.
History Commons - This alone should give one pause, though it's a massive amount of material to get through.
http://www.historycommons.org/
Daniel Hopsicker
http://www.madcowprod.com/
Peter Dale Scott
http://www.peterdalescott.net/
Nafeez Ahmed
http://nafeez.blogspot.com/
(Read The War on Truth)
Here's a good 5 year old primer: Some of the links aren't working and some of the ideas are 5 years old, but the basics are still solid.
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/coincidence-theorists-guide-to-911.html
Mike Ruppert
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
(Read Crossing the Rubicon)
Look into Catherine Austin Fitts
Sibel Edmonds
John O'Neill
Indira Singh
Watch the doc 9/11: Press for Truth
http://www.911pressfortruth.com/
See the doc: Kill the Messenger
http://www.justacitizen.com/KillTheMessenger.html
There's a lot more...
Actually I think it's smart of Ilargi and Stoneleigh to avoid the deep politics of 9/11 and beyond. It would cloud their message, which is of vital importance. But Ilargi's dismissiveness on the topic shows his own blind spot, in my opinion.
If I was able to see that Reagan, Bush, and Clinton were setting us up for a fall, then I have to assume that the best and the brightest must have considered it in the very least. There are no accidents in politics, again, in my opinion.
I enjoy your comments on TAE. Keep on rockin'!
Todd Brock
Santa Monica, California
Dear Vk
ReplyDeleteFrom TAE I read your comments when you post them but your one on 9/11 needs some looking at on your behalf
Go to
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/
follow the links and see for yourself
and as a starting position do 2 things go to the one on the Pentagon lawns and ask yourself "where is the plane?" and then compare it to the Lockerbie or similar crash for an equivalent perspective then see for yourself. If that makes you ask questions then follow on looking
HappySurfer.
No plane theories are distractions. Too many eyewitnesses saw the plane at the pentagon. Sites like thewebfairy use sensations and emotions to convince.
ReplyDeleteVK
ReplyDeleteI'll try posting this again. A letter I sent to Dr. J this morning. I would be interested in your critique of Griffin's 9/11 - The Myth and the Reality. I addresses the primary objection that you raised in TAE quite directly. It was his first "myth."
_____________
As to debunking the 9/11 government conspiracy theory, I have no illusions that the truth will ever come out in such a fashion that the perpetrators will be brought to justice or even that the average Usaco will ever admit the truth. My main point for publishing my rejection of the theory is to warn people that "the Bastards" will stop at absolutely nothing to get their way. Once one recognizes the degree of their ruthlessness, one is at least psychologically warned.
If it were discovered that Hitler or Stalin pulled off a false flag operation for tactical reasons that killed 3000 citizens of their country, it would hardly make a footnote in a history book. But the myth of American exceptionalism is a whole other ball of wax, and this myth will be a major enabler to allow the Bastards to destroy the citizenry of the country now and in the future.
Getting down to brass tacks, there is something even more amazing than WTC7 collapsing for no apparent reason. That was that the de facto owner of the building, billionaire Larry Silverstein, explain why they had to "pull" the building for safety reasons on network television while it was still in plain view over his shoulder through a window. This was also true of a British reporter, who described the collapse in the past tense while it was still standing in plain view behind her in the video.
If you study it carefully, you will discover that WTC 1 & 2 were specifically designed to withstand the impact of a 707, the largest commercial jet at the time. For what it is worth, which isn't much, I actually put in a couple of weeks working there as a construction plumbing for my shop at the time. However, I hold no particular fondness for the structure itself.
The gold standard for debunking the government conspiracy theory is set forth in many works by the brilliant and very rational Professor Emeritus of Theology, David Ray Griffin. Probably the best entry level into his work is the one hour video, 9/11: The Myth and the Reality which may be found at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069714733894389451
He also recently did a one hour interview on Guns and Butter where he went into further detail that the secular myth of the basic "goodness" of the American government made it psychologically impossible for people to grasp this crime. That is why I got into "How would the truth make you feel?" with Aesthete yesterday. Until Americans can recognize and cope with the ensuing avalanche of feelings of betrayal and terror (with their government), they are quite incapable of evaluating the evidence. Or to quote the funniest American of the 20th century, Richard Pryor, "Are you gonna believe me or your lying eyes?"
Griffin dealt with this in January of this year in an interview at:
http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/47346
Guns and Butter - "9/11 and Nationalist Faith" with Dr. David Ray Griffin
Griffin goes into mind numbing detail, dissecting the government lies into tiny pieces in his work, Debunking 9/11 Debunking, but the only person I would recommend this to would be VK, who would would probably delight in the intricacies and detail.
continued:
ReplyDeleteYou also might find the following interesting:
http://ultruth.com/Kevin_Ryan.htm
I have contributed to Ryan's defense law suit.
If you want to get into the physical impossibility of the planes dropping the WTC, Steven Jones is the gold standard. He was a full professor of physics at BYU until he published papers showing that only nanothermite could have caused the collapsed. BYU then forced him into early retirement.
You can access his original paper and later ones at:
http://stj911.org/
As I former chemist, I was quite capable of evaluating this information which I found quite conclusive.
Happy reading :-(
El Gallinazo (Paul)
VK
ReplyDeleteComparing a multi-year global financial crisis to a 3 hours paramilitary false flag operation is a total apple and oranges analogy.
Thanks EL G, I'll have a look at the info you've given me. Will take a few hours/days I'm guessing at the least!
ReplyDelete@ Todd
ReplyDeleteThanks for the links, there's a lot of information to go through it seems! I've never studied 9/11 much I admit, in the same way that I have studied energy, finance etc.
I would second the David Ray Griffin and Steven Jones references. Solidly science-based.
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of disinformation or hysterical speculation out there, it's hard to tell which is which. But I've seen some pages that will start to tell a story of a not-so-well-controlled demolition, and then wander off onto space aliens with laser beams or secretly-developed teeny tiny nuclear bombs.
I think Mike Ruppert tells a pretty convincing story about the intelligence failures (and misdirection), but waxes speculative on some of the technical aspects. Still, it's interesting to read about how the air defenses of the most powerful military in history could not find 3 or 4 stray jumbo jets for an hour or more after they had gone off course.
VK,
ReplyDeleteI enjoy so much your posts at TAE. Thank you for your sincere inquiry on 9/11. I hope you pursue the solid sources and suggestions offered above.
My husband and I were first exposed to the reality of 9/11 by a dvd ("A Call to Reopen the Sept. 11 Investigation -- Confronting the Evidence") given to us by a fellow Kucinich primary campaign worker, and "The Great Conspiracy: The 9/11 News Special You Never Saw." Later, we read Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon" and Griffin's "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11." We became convinced after much reading that 9/11 was a false flag operation orchestrated by our government. This was a heartbreaking realization because it left no hope in the system. We reflected that if our government could do this to its own people no one was safe in the USA and there was no hope for any genuine reform. The efforts of peaceful activists would be futile in terms of affecting any significant change, particularly at the federal government level.
Be well!
Ahimsa
@ DIYer
ReplyDeleteStill, it's interesting to read about how the air defenses of the most powerful military in history could not find 3 or 4 stray jumbo jets for an hour or more after they had gone off course.
Could it be that the US govt didn't plan the attacks but knew about them before hand or simply couldn't react in time to the information. And then made full use of the attack to their own benefit.
The US is the largest economy in the world but as we have seen the present debacle unfold, I've come to realize that all the wrong people are in power. Namely keynesians and Larry Summers!
The official excuse was that the military was conducting exercises that day and all their fighter planes and other resources were busy practicing responses to simulated threats.
ReplyDeleteAny one piece of evidence could be discounted one way or another but taken together, the events of that day do not seem coincidental.
VK said
ReplyDelete"Could it be that the US govt didn't plan the attacks but knew about them before hand or simply couldn't react in time to the information. And then made full use of the attack to their own benefit."
No. Cheney's actions under the White House as detailed in excruciating detail by Griffin disproves this notion. Secretary of Transportation Moreta is on video (he was in the command center with Cheney) stating as the aircraft was headed east toward the Pentagon, a junior officer repeatedly asked Cheney if they should intercept and down the craft. Cheney told him no, that if he wanted this done he would give the order. The officer asked him again, in disbelief, five minutes prior to impact. Cheney responded with anger to the officer.
VK, with your high powered brain, hopefully not too whiskey soaked, once you start to dig into the details, the truth wil become exceedingly apparent. However, it may be interesting to ask yourself why you are trying to find rabbit holes to the truth that this was a false flag operation, orchestrated by Cheney, and then laid at the feet of OBL. The real OBL, who almost certainly died a few months later from complications of a stroke and kidney disease, originally vehemently denied involvement.
If your interest is as an historian I commend you. However, I submit that if irrefutable glaringly obvious proof of 9-11 as a US elite plot was in hand and shown to US citizens it would make precisely no difference now. Layer after layer of criminality and police state via Patriot and Military Commissions acts have been plyed on to America thanks to the game changing 9-11. It is too late for discovery or the truth. Remember the phrase current during 2001 "suddenly everything is different..."? It was a setup, a lie --but it worked. It is all water over the dam by now, ancient history to propagandized citizens with 26 second attention spans. The Overlords won totally and completely.
ReplyDelete@ El G
ReplyDeleteThe real OBL, who almost certainly died a few months later from complications of a stroke and kidney disease, originally vehemently denied involvement.
WHAT??? He denied it and he's dead?
Any data to support this conclusion? How is he making those videos then from Pakistan??
VK. You're welcome for the links. And welcome to the minefield :)
ReplyDeleteActually the order isn't explicitly stated in Mineta's testimony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y
WHAT??? He denied it and he's dead?
ReplyDeleteWell, there are a few problems with the later OBL videos. For one, his face is quite different. But more appalling is that OBL was left handed, and the guy in the later videos was right handed. But just as L. Ron Hubbard kept writing books after he died, OBL kept making videos. No point in allowing a little thing like death to screw up your productivity.
As to links to a factual basis of this, Griffin deals with it briefly in the video 9/11 : The Myth and the Reality which you apparently haven't had the opportunity to view yet. He deals with it exclusively in his last and recent book,:
Osama Bin Laden: Dead or Alive? by David Ray Griffin (Paperback - May 20, 2009)
or you can access a decent interview with him about the book at:
http://www.kpfa.org/archive/show/34
PS
ReplyDeleteToodbrock's recommendation of Mike Ruppelt's Crossing the Rubicon is an excellent source and encyclopedic. This was my intro to tin foil hat conspiracy theorist psycho 101. I discovered Griffin afterwards. Along with Griffins's Debunking 9/11 Debunking, they prove way beyond a reasonable doubt to a rational investigator that it was a false flag inside job. And then of course you can throw in Steven Jones nanothermite work. As a matter of fact, Jones recently got ahold of some WTC pulverization, and ran it through some exotic analytical instruments. Guess what residues he found in it. Did you know the remaining girders were shipped to China for resmelting almost immediately with no forensic work done on them? No way to try a mass murder crime scene unless the cops committed the crime.
You ask why no one has spilled the beans. The beans are all over the floor. The fucking public is too hypnotized to notice them. It's all "conspiracy theorist" na-na-nih-na-na. After you learn the facts, don't forget how you were hypnotized by the bullshit. It is a valuable lesson.
However, the fruits of this investigation is bitterness and despair, and you appear to have enough of these on your plate.
Quite a lot of comments for the first post on a new blog! I'm more of a LIHOP than a MIHOP, but my wife is a firm 911 Truther. Watching the Zeitgeist movie shook my complacency a bit, though. WTC 7 sure looks like an inside job.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm more focused on getting ready for the implosion of civilisation. I've already lost faith in the U.S. .gov, so much so that we moved out of the country. And even though my wife is insistent on returning to North America, we're not re-entering the U.S. when we do. I just wanted to say good on ya TAE regulars for the discussions you have over there. I learn a lot from the topics you regs bring up.
@ El G
ReplyDeleteI saw the Griffin video, poses some very interesting questions.
National Geographic is airing a 9/11 special with Griffin at the end of this month.
Check the link out here,
http://natgeotv.com/conspiracies
On Monday, August 31, 2009, National Geographic Channel's 9/11: Science and Conspiracy conducts a forensic investigation to test tenets of some of the most common conspiracy theories. Did the Twin Towers really collapse from fires, or did explosives inside cause the buildings to implode? Was the Pentagon hit by a missile, and not a commercial airliner? And why do so many people believe theories like these?
Using high-tech forensic experiments, CGI re-creations, eyewitness footage and in-depth analysis by experts and theorists on all sides of the story, 9/11: Science and Conspiracy examines the alleged conspiracies and available evidence. Then we take a fascinating fly-on-the-wall position as the theorists observe the scientific results and debate the conclusions.
Featured interviewees include "Truthers" Dr. David Ray Griffin, Dylan Avery, and Richard Gage; David Aaronovitch, journalist/author; Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone journalist; Patrick Smith, pilot and Salon columnist; David Baldacci, conspiracy novelist; and Brent Blanchard, demolition expert; among others.
I'm sure I'll be derided for posting this, but I found the popular mechanics examination credible.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
One problem with the truthers I've met in person is their willingness to contradict themselves. (This is not to impugn the posters here.) A guy I worked with a couple years ago first claimed that there were no planes. When I told him that my college roommate's dad had seen one of them hit, he said they were remote controlled.
Look at the staggering, often contradictory, array of theories:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
As with the financial crisis, I think vultures (no offense, El G) will capitalize on any disaster. But I don't think there's any man behind the curtain.
Another piece of skepticism from a Mr. Reaganomics, Paul Craig Roberts (Wikipedia):
ReplyDeleteOf the 9/11 Commission Report he wrote in 2006, "One would think that if the report could stand analysis, there would not be a taboo against calling attention to the inadequacy of its explanations." (see Criticisms of the 9/11 Commission Report). He has reported what he says are findings by experts that conclude there is a large energy deficit in the official account of the collapse of the three WTC buildings, and says that this deficit remains unexplained.
Roberts comments on the "scientific impossibility" of the official explanation for the events on 9/11 and says those engineers and physicists who accept this theory are wrong. On August 18, 2006, he wrote:
I will begin by stating what we know to be a solid incontrovertible scientific fact. We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less steel columned buildings, to “pancake” at free fall speed. Therefore, it is a non-controversial fact that the official explanation of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false... Since the damning incontrovertible fact has not been investigated, speculation and “conspiracy theories” have filled the void.[6]
On the (back) cover of Debunking 9/11 Debunking (2007) he is quoted:
Professor Griffin is the nemesis of the 9/11 cover-up. This new book destroys the credibility of the NIST and Popular Mechanics reports and annihilates his critics.Book Cover Quote
Roberts adding that the so-called neoconservatives intended to use a renewal of the fight against terrorism to rally the American people around the fading Republican Party. "The administration figures themselves and prominent Republican propagandists ... are preparing us for another 9/11 event or series of events," he said. "You have to count on the fact that if al Qaeda is not going to do it, it is going to be orchestrated."
Again, I simply find the opposing view more plausible.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.911myths.com/drg_nist_review_2_1.pdf
If you can link to an article by Griffin that you think is particularly persuasive, I'd love to read it.
@ Garth
ReplyDeleteThanks for the links. There's a voluminous amount of information out there. Certainly the biggest question I have is how WTC 7 collapsed minus any plane hit and what happened to Flight 93? Shot down or crashed?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, then they don’t have to worry about answers.” Thomas Pynchon – Gravity’s Rainbow
ReplyDelete“We are allowed to believe anything, but to know nothing, and thus we cannot act.” Martin Schotz – History Will Not Absolve Us
I’ve collected a few audio and video lectures and presentations from the sites and authors listed above and have hastily thrown some of them up onto a website.
http://web.me.com/toddbrock/Deep_Politics_and_Such/Welcome.html
I believe it is worthwhile to consider that exactly how building 7 collapsed may in fact be the wrong question.
Garth
ReplyDeleteGriffin's most convincing argument for someone of your apparent mind set is put forth in his book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking. There are many used copies available on Amazon for under $6 plus postage.
I summarized some of David Ray Griffin's early work (his first book), with PDF copies of the slide shows available here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rototillerman.com/C1326782256/E1797254343/index.html
I would also say that the topic of 9/11 is a minefield of disinformation and weirdness. Ruppert's book takes the practical approach of a former detective: who had means, motive, opportunity? In particular, he builds a case devoid of physical evidence, on the premises that a) much of the physical evidence was hastily destroyed, and b) physical evidence opens the door to contradictory experts. Griffin includes the physical evidence (Pentagon anomalies, Tower collapse theories, etc), but only as part of the larger argument that these are additional signs pointing in the same direction as time-based and political evidence.
Rototillerman
Well put Rototillerman. Like your site.
ReplyDeleteIt's a dirty game, the Sibel Edmonds story was fascinating. Sounds like it's right out of a hollywood movie! Espionage, double cross, illegal arms and drugs networks and trading of secrets.
ReplyDeleteThe Sibel Edmonds story is ongoing. More like the next season of Lost than a movie :)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bradblog.com/?p=7374
Hey VK, I have a totally off-topic question for you (international bond market stuff), but I don't want to derail anything. Should I ask it here or give you my e-mail?
ReplyDeleteWoops, sorry Garth I hardly check my own blog. Just post the question over at The Automatic Earth. I'm there everyday!
ReplyDeleteVK, you wrote on TAE, "So while I think Weaseldog, you accept your sins, you don't take blame for the sins of Bush/ Obama. This is true but I have to disagree on having no voting choice and being betrayed. If Americans would spend maybe a few hours of their year on educating themselves about Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich, things could've been a lot different."
ReplyDeleteI wanted to vote for Dennis, but our corporate leaders killed him in the primaries. We're offered a choice of turd sandwiches, and told to believe that this is how a democracy functions. No amount of education by the public would've changed the outcome of the primaries. We still would've gone to the polls, picking the best turd sandwich. We aren't allowed the luxury of choosing roast beef...
As to 9/11. I have to admit I'm a bit burned out on the topic. I was unemployed on that day, and saw the drama unfold on television. Hour by hour, the storyline and time lines were changed, adjusted, rearranged to fit the official story as it was being invented. I got tire of folks telling me I'm full of crap when I describe some of the stories as they were presented live. Most Americans didn't see the narrative until it had been rewritten.
I have to say that I'm suspicious of our lack of response. We only scrambled jets twice. We didn't scramble them when we knew the planes were hijacked. We scrambled them, only when it looked like the passengers were regaining control of the plane. In one incident, passengers said they had regained the control of the plane, and they were being diverted over the Atlantic. Jets were immediately scrambled out of Andrews Airforce Base to intercept. They came right back. the Atlantic Seaboard was closed and the story forgotten within the hour.
The other time was when the flight went down in Pennsylvania, reporters were on all three sites were the wreckage of the plane had been found. By the time evening came around, the official story was that there was only one crash site.
I don't think you need a grand conspiracy to explain these events. Dick Cheney was calling the shots. If he was the only one in the know, it would've been enough. After all, the purported hijackers (fake IDs true identities forever unknown), were financed by family friends of the former president Bush.
As to the demolition theory, it has a flaw. If you watch the videos, doctored or not, you see the buildings collapsing from the floors were the fires are. Normally demolitions start the collapse at the ground floor. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that demolitions experts, placed explosives inside of a fire.
I'll propose a theory on why it collapsed. Perhaps the building was made from substandard materials? Perhaps this is why the iron was quickly disposed of?
Keep in mind also, that an office building has much more mass in materials inside, with filing cabinets, desks, cubicles, computers etc..., than a hotel carries. So comparisons between hotel fires and office building fires might not be valid. The extra weight on each floor, may have played a role in causing a collapse in this case, versus the hotel fires given as counter examples.
WT7 appears to be what the authorities said it was. An intentional demolition. I've had two people who worked in certain government scenarios tell me that intelligence offices are rigged to melt down. This is a cold war strategy to prevent files from being stolen in case the building is compromised. Other folks laugh when I mention this. I have no proof. you can believe what you want.
But if the case of WT7 we had government intelligence offices, and the legal offices of the folks working on the Enron scandal, among high finance cases. It was awfully convenient for many wealthy people, that all of the evidence against them was lost.
Of course, I can't prove a thing. All I know is what I saw on TV, and read on the internet.
VK, Like some others I got burned out on 9/11 and ultimately it's importance is fading as the perps have pretty much achieved their goals.
ReplyDeleteI studied engineering physics at university and can tell you unequivocally that the official government theory is simply impossible based on Newtonian mechanics aka classical mechanics. (Whether it's possible in some alternate quantum universe is another story.)
A student with a good understanding of high school level physics could tell you why the buildings must have been brought down by explosives. For example: answer the question of whether there was enough energy within the system to wreak the damage that was done and the answer was that there was not by orders of magnitude---thus there had to be another energy input i.e. explosives.
The lack of a proper investigation with an examination of the evidence means that we will never get a clear trail pointing to the perps. And of course that's just what they want. Even the 9/11 commissioners complained that their hands were tied by lack of funds and access to witnesses and evidence.
Anyone who believes that at worst their government deliberately sat on evidence that terrorists were about to strike will miss the very key point that the perps/aka the Bush/Cheney cabal (a reference which btw was made by Colin Powell's Chief of Staff) are and were willing to do whatever it took to achieve their aims. A chilling realization considering that what it took was the largest mass murder in American History.
VK, love your work and comments on TAE!